Alice Randall Allsop ^{6,7,15,16,33,34,35,36,37,38,39}

  General Notes:

1891 census, Worksop, Nottinghamshire, district 5

district 5, page 5
No. of schedule: 30
81 Abbey Street
George Truman, Head, married, age 47, Ret Labourer, born Worksop, Notts
Martha Truman, wife, married, age 36, born Grantham, Essex

district 5, page 5
No. of schedule: 33
87 Abbey Street
George Allsop, Head, married, age 28, occupation Sawyer, Circular, born Worksop, Notts.
Keturah Allsop, wife, married, age 26, occupation --? maker, born Worksop, Notts
Mary Ann Allsop, daughter, single, age 5, scholar, born Worksop, Notts
Alice Allsop, daughter, single, age 3, born Worksop, Notts
George Allsop, son, single, age 1, born Worksop, Notts
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1901 census, Whittington, Derbyshire, England.

RG13, Piece 3253, Folio 68, Page 15, Schedule 90

line 5
64 Church Street, Whittington, Derbyshire

George Allsop, Head, married, age 37, occupation: Circular Sawyer Timberyard, born Notts Worksop
Kelinah Allsop, Wife, married, age 35, born Notts Worksop
Alice ", daughter, age 13, attending School, born ditto ditto
George ", son, age 11, attending School, born ditto ditto
John ", son, age 9, attending School, born Yorks, Sheffield
Horace ", son age 7, attending School, born Lincoln, Gainsbro?
Ethel ", daughter, age 5, attending School, born Notts Worksop

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The Dyson family says that:
"Alice might have spent some time in France as she always had some French friends and also a french nanny. [likely Denyse Tauvron.. ?? as per witness on 1923 christening record of Catherine Denyse (Morad) Dyson...jca]
Alice and Frederick seperated and Alice went to Canada where she was involved in a pedestrian vehicle accident. The two girls were placed in an orphanage, and mother Alice moved to New York. Alice is believed to have died in United States or Canada but she did come back to visit the girls from time to time."
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NOTE: Alice Morad working for the Kennedy family as a domestic in London England on the 1911 census and then working again for the Kennedy family as a domestic in 1925 in Ottawa when she arrived by the SS Montrose. same family for sure....Maureen and jca..
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  Research Notes:

January 2013, Maureen Lussier now found our Alice Morad living in Jacques-Cartier-Lasalle, Montreal, Quebec, on the Canada Voters List for 1963.
"Alice Morad, 95 6th Ave, pensioner"

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June 7, 2012, another short interview with Catherine Dyson here in Kelowna, BC. I called her up and asked her what was the name that her mother Alice was using when Catherine was writing to her in New York so many years ago. She immediately said "Schwartz". After all these years her memory popped up that name, which exactly matches the 1940 census record that we just found this morning for Carl and Alice Schwartz of #9 Kew Gardens Road, Queens, New York City. what a suprise. !.. James Anderson

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August 21, 2010
Hi Jim:

Well, I spent today digging into our friend Alice again. Been trying to find a Harry Vigurs that would fit the dates we have managed to acquire.

I've been prompted by the recent visit with Ruth and Florence to see Catharine and Penny and have to tell you, I came away with my mind full of more questions! I have to say, there are some things that don't make sense, so it seems the best approach is to take very small steps in order to establish some reliable facts, and eliminate conjecture. This is all "off the cuff" for discussion purposes. It's just that two or more heads are sure better than one.

So now I'll proceed with conjecture.....

Catharine is such a neat lady and if you get a cup of tea, sit back with her and relax, she can take her time and think way back about what her life's experiences were. This is where we can pick up tidbits here, tidbits there and see what starts forming parts of her history.

I asked her about Roseberry House and if she recollected how she might have ended up there; moreover how long she might have lived there and with whom. e.g. did she have any recollection of Harry Vigurs? She speculated that perhaps he owned Roseberry and maybe even hired Denyse Thauvron. Also said her mother did stay there as well.

Then I asked if she could recall what age she might have been when she was sent to the orphanage in Swansea and did she know the name of it. I made notes for myself and later when we got back to Ruth's, we thought some clarification was needed as well as how Catharine got from an orphanage in Swansea and into nurse's training in London. Ruth talked to her mum the next day and got a bit more info:

Catharine was put with a family in Oxwich near Swansea. There was a father, mother and a little boy about the same age as Catharine. She thinks she was there before age 6 and probably stayed with them 1-2 years.
She then went into the orphanage in Swansea, might be St. Dunstan and we think would have been Catholic as Denyse had her baptized in an RC church on the Isle of Wight.

Catharine also mentioned that it was the people at the orphanage who told her they were really impressed her mum especially her ability with languages. So I'm asking where and why would they have been talking to her mum? Oh, they went to New York to look at her circumstances because she wanted to bring Catherine to New York. Ruth twigged immediately said whispered "I bet it was Denyse Thauvron", and we both think that's who they were talking to because it certainly sounds like Denyse was one of the women who put Catharine into "care".

My "evidence" is as follows: The earliest record of Denyse on the NY Passenger Lists is 1927 when she arrived in October from Cherbourg. Her occupation is teacher and could speak English, French, Spanish and Russian. Also the copy of Catharine's baptism showed it was verified in 1934. Catharine would have been 14 by then. Ruth found out from her mum that she went directly from Swansea to London into training at age 17.

Back to Alice: You were able to locate her working as a domestic in St Pancras on the 1911 Census with a family headed by Howard Angus Kennedy.
Did you notice that their daughter was born in Quebec? Also when Alice came to Canada, she was to work as a domestic for a family named Kennedy in Ottawa. Says I to myself, this looks a bit more than coincidental.
Turns out this Howard Kennedy made many trips between the UK and Canada, in fact, in November 1932 he noted he had lived in Ottawa between April 1881 and Oct 1932, and his address was 603 The Aylmer's, Ottawa, Ont.
Bingo!!!!!! Now we know why Alice decided to come to Canada - she had a job with the same Kennedy family she worked for in 1911 before she married Morad. Actually in 1933 Mr Kennedy said he lived 1881-1933 in Montreal and the address was 5010 Sherbrooke St W, Montreal.

A little tidbit to add: their son roderick Kennedy, joined up in WW1 and gave his next of kin as H A Kennedy of Lacombe, Alberta. (ref Canada Archives.. Roderick Stewart Kennedy , a farmer, born Dec 16, 1890 in Montreal West. next of kin H. A. Kennedy in Lacombe Alberta)

I know this is a long and dragged out missive from me and I hope I have put it all in some sort of logical order. Not all of this is suitable for the web, but if you tell me what is appropriate, I can organize and send it back to you for ease of input.

By the way, Harry Vigurs? There is a wad of them in Fulham and there is a Harry born 4Q 1887 Vol 1a page 255, that might fit the bill, but I haven't managed anything more. Looking at the occupations of the various Vigur names, I don't see anyone who might have afforded Roseberry House.

Did find in the Wills website a Laura Vigurs (Vicurs) of 9 Goodhall-street, Willesden Junction Middlesex, Widow, died 7 Mar 1915 at Kingswood-road, Chiswick, Middlesex. administration London 31 Mar to Harry Vigurs, Constable. Effects 162 pounds 4s 10d. This is probably Harry Last Vigurs, the policeman who died before Spencer Dyson did, which just adds to the confusion as to whether it was Morad or Vigurs that Grethe told Catharine to go after for some money after Spencer died.

That's it -- thanks for being patient with me!
Maureen
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____Call #: Shortt FC3215 .K466 1928 Author: Kennedy, Howard Angus, 1861-1938 </northwest/index/author/91.html>
Title: The North-West Rebellion / by Howard Angus Kennedy. Published: Toronto : Ryerson Press, [c1928] Description: 32 p. : ill., facsims. ; 19 cm. Notes: Cover title. Another copy in Pamphlet LXII-41 A brief history of both resistances written for school children. Kennedy was a correspondent for the Times (London) during the 1885 Resistance and his first hand account includes some useful details. Subject: Northwest Rebellion, 1885 </northwest/index/subject/17.html>

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August, 21, 2010,
Jim:

Sometimes I have to look again and again to see info you have already recorded on the web.

You retrieved her emigration info from "Find My Past" and have highlighted at the bottom that she had given her last permanent address as being:

Gohens Burton, Villaney Cottage, Oxwich

Of course, as we learned from Catharine, she lived with a family in Oxwich before she went to the orphanage in Swansea. It then looks more and more possible that it really was Alice that arranged for Catharine to enter the orphanage before she immigrated to Canada, and not Denyse Thauvron.

I've attached the 2 immigration documents: Alice's, which shows her coming to work for the Kennedy family and the 1932 record of Howard Kennedy (who Alice was working for in 1911 England Census) living at the same address in Ottawa that Alice arrived at in 1925. This place in Swansea might have been a boarding school rather than just an orphanage???

That Catharine still has a pretty good memory, doesn't she.

Cheers, Maureen.


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James,

Re Alice (Allsop) Morad:

The only thing I would like to add is that as far as anyone knows her move to America was possibly precipitated by the death of her husband. She left the girls in the custody of two maiden lady friends and went to New York first and then later to Canada. She was living in New York in 1947/48 when Mum and I came to Canada as we stopped and visited her and we had portraits done with her. She apparently came seeking work but was in an accident and very badly injured and so the girls were sent to school in Greta's case and an orphanage in my mum's case. I don't think they ever expected her to survive. Ruth (Dyson) O'Doherty, June 3, 2005
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Note that Keturah Allsop had a younger sister also named Alice... jca
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National Archives of Canada, Immigration records.

Surname: Morad
Given Name: Alice
Age: 36
Sex F
Nationality: Br
Date of arrival: 1925/04/12
Port of arrival: Saint John, New Brunswick
Ship: Montrose, Canadian Pacific
Reference: RG76-IMMIGRATION, series C-1-c
Volume 1925 - volume 3
Page 79
Microfilm reel: T-14846
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This SSN death registration is interesting but may not pan out....... jca
Name: Alice Morad
SSN: 065-44-4409
Last Residence: 14527 Penn Yan, Yates, New York, United States of America
Born: 31 Jul 1895
Died: 20 Apr 1995
State (Year) SSN issued: New York (1967-1968 )
( note the birth date doesn't seem to have any bearing on "our" Alice Morad.. jca.
but ordered anyway on Dec 4, 2010.. jca
no joy on this one either.. father shows as Salin Morad, mother: Rashed (no maiden name)


Oct 22, 2010. Searched SSN death registrations again looking for any Alice with birth date of March 25, 1888 and only found 1 item even close to New York state and that was for :
Alice Chambers, SSN 138-20-9796, issued in New Jersey. last address: XX953 (US Consulate: CANADA)
death date: Nov 1972, age 84.

Received this SSN application all ok a few weeks later, and it was not our gal Alice Morad.. It was clearly for a spinster Alice Chambers, born in New Brunswick.. too bad. jca.. Now to order the one for the above Alice Morad , even tho the birth date does not match our Alice Morad.. have to order anyway.. jca

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  Noted events in her life were:

• Residence: Abbey Street, 1888, Worksop, Nottinghamshire, England. ³⁵

• Residence: 64 Church Street, 1901, Whittington, Derbyshire, England. ⁴⁰

• Residence: 71 Gordon Mansions, 1911, St. Pancras, London, England. ³⁸

• Occupation: General Domestic Servant for Howard Angus Kennedy.., 1911, St. Pancras, London, England. ³⁸

• Residence: 188 Edmund Rd, 1912, Sheffield, Yorkshire, England. ³³

• Residence: 66 Carlton Vale, 1913, Willesden, Middlesex, England. ⁴¹

• Residence: 302 Fulham Palace Road, Jan 1920, Fulham, County of London. ¹⁶

• Residence: Gohens Burton, Villaney Cottage, Oxwich, 3 Apr 1925, Oxwich, (Westglamorgan), Wales. ³ (in Westglamorgan, Wales)

• Immigration: SS Montrose, Canadian Pacific, 12 Apr 1925, St. John, New Brunswick. ^37,42

• Employment: Domestic, Apr 1925, J. Kennedy, 603, The Aylmers, Ottawa. ⁴³

• Residence, 1 Apr 1935, New York. ³⁴

• Residence: 9 Kew Gardens Road, Apr 1940, Queens, New York, USA. ³⁴

• Occupation: Rand McNally, 1946, New York, New York. ⁴⁴

• Residence: New (Kew ?) Gardens, 15 83-96 117 Street, 9 Dec 1946, New York, New York. ³

• Residence: 95 6th Ave, 1963, Montreal, Québec. ⁴⁵ occupation: pensionner

Alice married Frederick (Fritz) Morad, son of John Morad and Unknown, on 8 Apr 1912 in Sheffield, Yorkshire, England ⁶.^,33 (Frederick (Fritz) Morad was born about 1875 in Germany ^6,33,46.)

  Marriage Notes:

Certified copy of an entry of marriage,
1912, Marriage solemnized at The Parish Church, in the Parish of St. Mary's, Sheffield in the County of York

No. 13
When married: April 8, 1912
Name: Fritz Morad, age 35, Bachelor, profession: Baker,
residence: 195 St. Georges Street, London, E.
Father's Name: John Morad (deceased), profession: Carpenter

Alice Allsop, age 24, Spinster,
residence: 188 Edmund Rd.
Father's name: George Allsop, profession: Sawyer

married in the Parish Church according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church after Banns by me, Arthur Robinson.

This marriage was solemnized between us,
Fritz Morad, Alice Allsop
in the presence of us: George Allsop, Mary Annie Allsop, George Allsop, Mary Jenkins
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I will try and find more about the family in the new year. I have always thought that grandmother's maiden name was Randal or Randall. Grandfather was a Rhinelander, I believe, but I don't think my mother ever knew whether he was from the German or the French side. He seemed to like the idea of being which ever of the two nationalities suited at the time. His surname was Morad. He seems to have used Fritz, Francois or Francis as first names. I have never known Alice as "Allsop", but only ever heard her referred to as Alice Randal, Alice Randal Morad or Alice Morad, except that I believe she remarried when she went to USA, but I do not recollect the name of the man she married. I shall let you know as and when I discover more.
Best wishes to you all from the family here for Chritmas and 2003.
Robert Denman, Dec 24, 2002

Alice next had a relationship with Harry Vigurs in Not Likely Married.

Alice next married Carl Schwartz between 1930 and 1940 in New York.³⁴ (Carl Schwartz was born about 1872 in Germany ³⁴ and died on 19 Aug 1946.)